Currently watching: Road House with "Story Notes" on AMC
The story note that just came across that while Sam Elliot and Patrick Swayze are driving along in a car (right after Elliot's character arrives) the song playing on the radio is actually Swayze singing his own song (Cliff's Edge 1989). I guess they couldn't just let him openly masturbate on screen...
On that note --
This morning I was in a bit of an online argument with a guy I mentioned yesterday, John Manes. It was all in one of David Esrati's Facebook post's comments. For 20 minutes or so we went back and forth, with him telling me how it's Economy 101 and Business 101 how corporations should not be limited in how much they can earn. Trying to explain to ME how business works...
I have posted our entire conversation below -- what it amounts to (in a nutshell) is his constant insistence that profit should come above all else, and that any restriction put on corporations, or taxing them, will result in them going out of business, further crippling our economy.
And my reply (in a nutshell) boils down to my quote to him: "Your belief that these giant corporations are going to go tits up because they have to pay taxes is ludicrous. It may mean that they can stop operating in a fantasy world where an executive in charge during a profit downturn will still get his bonuses and perqs. Because there is "profitable" and then there is hand-over-fist greed, which in the long-term (a concept you seem to be unable to grasp in this conversation) is what is hurting these corporations and banks."
I did not get into it with him, really, on some of the points that I was thinking - he's got "Business 101" down - but NOT Advanced Business Theory. And his real world experience is, in my opinion, limited to "running a store," not "growing a business and legacy." His thoughts are all for the very short-term. The long-term results of his (or his company's) actions are lost on him -- all that matters is the bottom line in that moment... on a Quarter to Quarter basis.
See, that's the thing: the bubble always bursts. Profits cannot continue to rise every Quarter. You cannot consistently profit. Prices will not continue to rise unabated. Look at the dot.com bubble. Look at the housing bubble. Look at the automotive industry. Look at the coffee market and Starbucks, even! The list goes on and on. So someone telling me how I need to leave well enough alone and not to mess with success - when I'm like "You are fooling yourself! It won't last!" while all these examples are all around us and irrefutable.
My analogy of the Wall Street situation is part of Road House - The villain, Brad Wesley (played by the fantastic Ben Gazzara) - representing Wall Street - is summed up by the late Patrick Swayze's character, Dalton, as so:
I know exactly who Brad Wesley is! I have seen his kind many times. He keeps taking and taking until somebody takes him!And that's the deal. In the movie, Brad Wesley is a local powerhouse. He says he built the town - there was nothing when he arrived, but he brought in the Photomat, the Dairy Queen, and eventually JC Penny will arrive, too. All thanks to him. He has a big house, big cars, helicopter - and doesn't need to follow any law. He feels he can pay anyone off - and is pretty good about doing so. Anyone who doesn't go along with him gets destroyed - and he makes it pretty well known that he's behind it, but never faces any consequences. Never mind that plenty of people do NOT want what he is bringing there - many are more concerned that HE makes lots of money off these deals, while it ends up COSTING them.
And that's how Wall Street is -- they feel they're doing all these things for people (whether the people want them to or not), and they make a ton of money on it - but they're making that money by taking it away from everyone else. And not giving anything back but blowing up their car parts shop and stabbing Sam Elliot on a bar.
They'll keep taking until you take back.
Which is why, in the end, Occupy Wall Street will not work. Like Road House, Dalton's decision to try and be peaceful, in the end, does not work. He ends up having to respond violently. It is the only thing that these people understand --
And, like Dalton, you're going to have to tear someone's throat out.
------------------------------------
ANYWAY -- If you are interested, here is my whole online interaction with John and a few more folks. I just picked it up at the part where David Esrati made his observation. I invite your comments...
John Manes Certainly no one needs to, but also, no one should be able to restrict them from doing so.
Yesterday at 4:35pm ·
Thomas Nealeigh Even when they're making that kind of money at the expense of their employees, their company, government and the American society in general?
Yesterday at 4:53pm ·
Kent Metcalf David ~ where would you be without the misused words in a a free society of "should" & "need"? Quit shoulding yourself!
Yesterday at 4:55pm ·
John Manes First, it's not like every CEO makes a ridiculous amount of money, and B, if you took the typical CEO's pay and spread it amongst all of the companies employees and contractors, it would not amount to much for each of them. As as the government is concerned, I would much rather a business or an individual invest their funds, than hand it to the government where it is much more likely to be wasted.
Yesterday at 5:39pm ·
John Manes Economy 101..... Businesses and Corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do. Increasing the tax on BP will just result in an increase in the cost of gas. So increasing taxes to businesses is really just a tax increase on all of us consumers.
Yesterday at 5:40pm ·
Thomas Nealeigh
You're wrong, John. And your defeatist attitude that "if you took the typical CEO's pay and spread it amongst all of the companies employees and contractors, it would not amount to much for each of them" is not only an illogical argument, i...See More
20 hours ago ·
Kent Metcalf
We are talking about greed. Greed @ every level. The poor in the U.S. have a better quality of life than roughly 85% of the worlds population. Greed from the poor, middle & upper classes. Distribution of wealth does not work. It simply decreases motivation for ingenuity, creativity and business growth. We're not leveling the playing field; we're cutting off the oxygen which feeds the fire of corporations, jobs & employing people. Doesn't matter if you make $20K a year or $20 million; when we remove an individuals ability to double their income, we remove their motivation and the economy stalls.
13 hours ago ·
John Manes Thomas: Look around you today; the price of oil went up dramatically the past two days and you are seeing that increase in cost in the price of gas that stations are moving to today. A business' most common reaction to an increase in cost is to either raise it's prices or layoff workers. This pretty much is Business 101.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes And by the way, I in the 80's and 90's I used to be part owner of a very successful chain of stores, and when our costs went down, we passed that on to our customers, and when our costs went up, we passed that on as well.
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh
If you had gone beyond Business 101, you might have learned a bit about long term strategies towards building a base of returning customers. Constantly changing prices, laying off workers and cutting costs at the expense of the product, while they may look good on the short-term bottom line, are what harm companies in the long run. American car companies never did learn this lesson. Pushing for record profits quarterly may look good for shareholders but, again, will cost the companies in the end.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes Oil prices go up, gas prices go up, oil prices go down, gas prices go down. Cost of shipping goes up, cost of most goods goes up. Cost of jet fuel goes up, cost of airline tickets go up. Increase taxes to businesses, costs of their goods and services goes up, (or layoffs occur). This is not rocket science.
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh
The other thing that does is these executives and companies effectively boasting about how they are ripping off the public. Wal-Mart is a chain of successful stores that is starting to feel that crunch -- the short-term savings of getting a few cents off product pales to the long-term effects of trying to cover the medical costs and lack of retirement (and related expenses) for Wal-Mart's employees, since they do not take care of their own people.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes What caused the major issue with US car companies is that their high labor costs and higher taxes caused them to become uncompetitive in the marketplace.
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh While that was part of the problem - it was not the major problem. The major problems are as I outlined them. There is more to running a company than just costs and bottom line.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes Walmart is a retailer, a very large and successful one, but they are still a retailer and their wages and benefits are on par with most other retailers large and small.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes No, the major problem with US cars is that you could buy a better car at a cheaper price than you could from them.
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh Except for the disparity of salaries and that they hire a disproportionately large amount of employees that they have (especially those working less than full time).
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh No - the major problem with US cars is that they didn't plan for the long term, follow trends in the marketplace, and the exorbitant perqs packages to their executives (and employees, too). Executives of the most successful Japanese companies do not show the disparity between salaries of the average worker and executive -- AND they look out for their employees as well as their customers AND stockholders.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes The point with car makers, as any others here is that if costs go up, prices go up, where that cost comes from was not the point, and you have proved my point by stating that US car makers costs caused the product to not be able to compete with other companies. Again, if costs go up prices go up, if taxes go up, prices go up.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes So if your company all of a sudden sees a rise in the taxes you have to pay, you are just going to absorb that cost and possibly be forced out of business.
12 hours ago ·
John Manes A company has to be profitable to exist for any length of time, if costs go up, those costs have to be made up somewhere, or the business will fail. Corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do as that cost is buried in the cost of their goods and services.
12 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh
Your belief that these giant corporations are going to go tits up because they have to pay taxes is ludicrous. It may mean that they can stop operating in a fantasy world where an executive in charge during a profit downturn will still get his bonuses and perqs. Because there is "profitable" and then there is hand-over-fist greed, which in the long-term (a concept you seem to be unable to grasp in this conversation) is what is hurting these corporations and banks.
11 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh
John, you are not convincing me of anything with your Business 101 discussion points, or your focus on the short-term. Especially not in this faceless forum. Frankly, I have seen and been a part of many a company who has gone under because they looked at things in a way similar to you. The belief that "too big to fail" is a good, possible and real thing. I look forward to an opportunity to have a discussion with you in person --
11 hours ago ·
John Manes Your string is working from the theoretical, mine is working from the real world, and as you can see from gas prices today in the real world, when costs go up, prices go up. It's that simple.
11 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh No, it is not in the theoretical. Your short-sightedness and inability to see the big picture is appalling.
11 hours ago ·
David Esrati @John Manes do you want me to troll up Kirby's accusation that you embezzled money from him? In starting that chain of stores...
11 hours ago ·
John Manes Dave: I think you are crossing the line and their are always two sides to every story, maybe you should ask Kirby how he tried to steal our name and lost in court.
11 hours ago ·
John Manes This is not a venue for those type of comments and you should note that I don't typically resort to insults and accusations.
11 hours ago ·
David Esrati John- I'm staying out of this one- 'cause I don't care. But, there are a whole bunch of court cases involving foreclosures etc. attached to you and or that chain. What- did the banks recklessly lend and over-extend credit to someone who wasn't credit worthy?
11 hours ago ·
John Manes I got out of that business in 2000, what happened the last few years had nothing to do with me, they were a product of the decline in that business as many other businesses of that type, (in fact almost all) have failed in the past 5 years.
11 hours ago ·
John Manes While I was an owner of the company we were voted Dayton's best on numerous occasions and were up for National Retailer of the year by NARM on three occasions. We were the dominant chain in this area for years at a time when most markets were dominated by National Chains, and we did it by providing services and prices that were unmatched by our competitors.
11 hours ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh So I checked the price of gas when I was out. It was actually lower than it has been for a while...
26 minutes ago ·
John Manes Yep, it was 3.01 on my way home for lunch when I filled up, it was 3.27 on my way back to work 45 minutes later and by now, most stations have raised their prices. The price of oil jumped about 8% in the past two days.
5 minutes ago ·
Thomas Nealeigh Raised for no real reason except greed, I'm sure. Speculation, I would imagine, about what these "Occupy" groups are going to do.
I remember the night of Desert Storm, as soon as it was announced, a local gas station raised its prices 150%, hoping to cash in on panicked people rushing to fill their tanks. Since no other gas station raised prices, they failed there - AND no one would buy gas from there after that knowing they tried to take advantage of the situation.
2 seconds ago.
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